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From: Matt on 8 Jun 2010 18:02 On Jun 8, 11:41 am, jonathan <jmeri...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 10:45 am, Matt <matttel...(a)sprynet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 8, 8:07 am, Ruben Safir <mrbrk...(a)panix.com> wrote: > > > > Matt <matttel...(a)sprynet.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 7, 2:34 pm, "Laurence Smith" <dr4si...(a)hvi.net> wrote: > > > >> I notice that the Brewers gave up on Jeff Suppan today. He's their > > > >> version of Oliver Perez. Actually Ollie's pitched better than Suppan > > > >> if you're comparing awfulness. > > > >> The point is that Milwaukee is a small market team that is willing to > > > >> eat a huge chunk of salary. > > > > >>http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3294 > > > > >> This says his 2010 salary is over $12 million. > > > > >> Will the Wilpons ever get the message that if you have to pay the guy > > > >> anyway it's better to release him if he's just clogging up a roster > > > >> spot and not contributing? > > > > > While not arguing, I will point out Suppan is 35. Ollie is not quite > > > > 29. > > > > So, while I agree that Perez is worthless, you can make the case that > > > > he COULD work things out, while Suppan is pretty much done. I also > > > > seem to recall Jeff had some injuries, most notably back problems. > > > > > Matt > > > > There is an essential problem though, that while not exclusive to the > > > Mets, the Mets suffer from this more than other teams that are smarter > > > about winning. This afflication targets mostly larger market > > > teams...California, San Francisco, Chicago (Both Teams), Houston and the > > > Mets. > > > > These team build rosters based on a mixture of talent. They develop > > > youngsters, trade, and sign a number of big contract free agents. With > > > regards to the large contracts, they get skirmish, and they keep these > > > players in the line up or rotation, regardless of how they perform, > > > because of finances. > > > > This is a huge mistake. > > > > With any number of signings, many will be good, some will be complete > > > busts, and in rare cases, a player will actually pay up to his contract > > > for the length of the deal. Frankly, this last event is rare. Only a > > > few players live up to their contract's expectations, especially in the > > > out years. There is Greg Maddox,Alex Rodriguez, Josh Beckett, perhaps > > > Manny Rameriz...and then it starts getting thin. > > > > Too high of an exceptation is a major issue for these clubs for big > > > ticket players. Most end up in the first category. They give you a > > > number of good seasons, and then age. Vlad Guerraro, Delgado, Martinez, > > > these come to mind. Beltran is likely to be in this category. > > > > The big mistake for these clubs, however, is letting the signings > > > prevent the club from creating the best 40 man roster that they can. > > > Ultimately, for all the signings, they lose track of the purpose of > > > these deals. They are not made to see player XYZ pitch 300 innings.. > > > They are made for the purpose of making the 40 man roster the best > > > possible 40 man they can create. Once the expenditures are made, the > > > team has to then proceed by putting the best 40 man rosters together > > > that they can, REGARDLESS of contract obligations. Otherwise they > > > undermine their essential purpose, which is to put a revenue creating > > > winning team on the field. > > > Okay, this is certainly true, and I agree the big market teams are the > > worst at it (look at the Yankees). However, I would disagree that the > > Mets > > are only trading for big name talent. Look at Wright, Reyes, Pelfrey > > and > > Tejada, all on the team. Admittedly, Tejada really shouldn't be there > > if they > > had signed a decent second baseman, but still... > > > I think they are starting to get it, but we'll see. > > > Matt > > With all due respect, they're not 'getting' anything. They're stuck > because they have severe budget limitations given the Madoff scenario > coupled with an economic collapse that has made their new cash-cow > stadium not quite the cash cow they envisioned. Tejada is playing > because their overpriced free agent (Castillo) is injured and their > significantly less-priced free agent (Cora) has been SO BAD that > there's no justification for playing him at this point by a manager > and GM who are both on the hot seat. > > Don't mistake desperation for a plan with this franchise. Mejia isn't > up because this is a plan in his development. He's up because the > manager begged for him. Davis is up because Mike Jacobs and Fernando > Tatis suck and the fan outcry was so huge that even the Wilpons > couldn't ignore it. Again, that wasn't a development plan. It was > reactionary. > > Everything this organization does is reactionary and none of it is > based on an overriding plan. If they had a plan, you could see a > pattern to what they do. There is no pattern because there is no > plan. They don't pick a philosophy and stick to it. Whether it's > offense, defense, pitching, or baserunning, the Mets basically change > their mind as soon as the wind blows. This is why there is no > stability. This is quite simply one of the worst run organizations in > the game because it has no plan. You may be right. You may be wrong. Only time will tell, and only then in hindsight. > > I know I beat the Red Sox example to death, but everybody killed them > at the beginning of the season about how their grand plan didn't > work. They're 4 games out of first place tied with the Yankees. They > didn't panic when they were 8 1/2 games back in the middle of May. > They stuck to their plan. Guys are starting to get healthy now and > all of the sudden they went 14-5 and the AL East is a 3-team race > again. They stick to their plan. Even the Yankees stick to their > plan. The Mets go for whatever the newest fad is. That's why the > Mets have had 9 GM's since 1991 and the Yankees and Red Sox have had 6 > combined (not including 2 short interim stints in Boston). The Mets live in a press world. They have to "win now" regardless of what the right approach might be. I personally think they are headed in the right direction, mostly in an oblique way. Manuel and Minaya cannot simply say "we don't care about free agents" they must find their way to bringing up marginal players (Tejada, Mejia, etc) who are not "can't miss right NOW" kind of guys and let them find their way. They are doing this. Politics sucks, whether it be in the political arena, the job arena, or the sports arena. I've been there for 25 years plus, I know. So, you do what you can. Will it work? No clue. Matt
From: Ruben Safir on 9 Jun 2010 11:05 Matt <matttelles(a)sprynet.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 11:41 am, jonathan <jmeri...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jun 8, 10:45 am, Matt <matttel...(a)sprynet.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 8, 8:07 am, Ruben Safir <mrbrk...(a)panix.com> wrote: >> >> > > Matt <matttel...(a)sprynet.com> wrote: >> > > > On Jun 7, 2:34 pm, "Laurence Smith" <dr4si...(a)hvi.net> wrote: >> > > >> I notice that the Brewers gave up on Jeff Suppan today. He's their >> > > >> version of Oliver Perez. Actually Ollie's pitched better than Suppan >> > > >> if you're comparing awfulness. >> > > >> The point is that Milwaukee is a small market team that is willing to >> > > >> eat a huge chunk of salary. >> >> > > >>http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3294 >> >> > > >> This says his 2010 salary is over $12 million. >> >> > > >> Will the Wilpons ever get the message that if you have to pay the guy >> > > >> anyway it's better to release him if he's just clogging up a roster >> > > >> spot and not contributing? >> >> > > > While not arguing, I will point out Suppan is 35. Ollie is not quite >> > > > 29. >> > > > So, while I agree that Perez is worthless, you can make the case that >> > > > he COULD work things out, while Suppan is pretty much done. I also >> > > > seem to recall Jeff had some injuries, most notably back problems. >> >> > > > Matt >> >> > > There is an essential problem though, that while not exclusive to the >> > > Mets, the Mets suffer from this more than other teams that are smarter >> > > about winning. This afflication targets mostly larger market >> > > teams...California, San Francisco, Chicago (Both Teams), Houston and the >> > > Mets. >> >> > > These team build rosters based on a mixture of talent. They develop >> > > youngsters, trade, and sign a number of big contract free agents. With >> > > regards to the large contracts, they get skirmish, and they keep these >> > > players in the line up or rotation, regardless of how they perform, >> > > because of finances. >> >> > > This is a huge mistake. >> >> > > With any number of signings, many will be good, some will be complete >> > > busts, and in rare cases, a player will actually pay up to his contract >> > > for the length of the deal. Frankly, this last event is rare. Only a >> > > few players live up to their contract's expectations, especially in the >> > > out years. There is Greg Maddox,Alex Rodriguez, Josh Beckett, perhaps >> > > Manny Rameriz...and then it starts getting thin. >> >> > > Too high of an exceptation is a major issue for these clubs for big >> > > ticket players. Most end up in the first category. They give you a >> > > number of good seasons, and then age. Vlad Guerraro, Delgado, Martinez, >> > > these come to mind. Beltran is likely to be in this category. >> >> > > The big mistake for these clubs, however, is letting the signings >> > > prevent the club from creating the best 40 man roster that they can. >> > > Ultimately, for all the signings, they lose track of the purpose of >> > > these deals. They are not made to see player XYZ pitch 300 innings. >> > > They are made for the purpose of making the 40 man roster the best >> > > possible 40 man they can create. Once the expenditures are made, the >> > > team has to then proceed by putting the best 40 man rosters together >> > > that they can, REGARDLESS of contract obligations. Otherwise they >> > > undermine their essential purpose, which is to put a revenue creating >> > > winning team on the field. >> >> > Okay, this is certainly true, and I agree the big market teams are the >> > worst at it (look at the Yankees). However, I would disagree that the >> > Mets >> > are only trading for big name talent. Look at Wright, Reyes, Pelfrey >> > and >> > Tejada, all on the team. Admittedly, Tejada really shouldn't be there >> > if they >> > had signed a decent second baseman, but still... >> >> > I think they are starting to get it, but we'll see. >> >> > Matt >> >> With all due respect, they're not 'getting' anything. They're stuck >> because they have severe budget limitations given the Madoff scenario >> coupled with an economic collapse that has made their new cash-cow >> stadium not quite the cash cow they envisioned. Tejada is playing >> because their overpriced free agent (Castillo) is injured and their >> significantly less-priced free agent (Cora) has been SO BAD that >> there's no justification for playing him at this point by a manager >> and GM who are both on the hot seat. >> >> Don't mistake desperation for a plan with this franchise. Mejia isn't >> up because this is a plan in his development. He's up because the >> manager begged for him. Davis is up because Mike Jacobs and Fernando >> Tatis suck and the fan outcry was so huge that even the Wilpons >> couldn't ignore it. Again, that wasn't a development plan. It was >> reactionary. >> >> Everything this organization does is reactionary and none of it is >> based on an overriding plan. If they had a plan, you could see a >> pattern to what they do. There is no pattern because there is no >> plan. They don't pick a philosophy and stick to it. Whether it's >> offense, defense, pitching, or baserunning, the Mets basically change >> their mind as soon as the wind blows. This is why there is no >> stability. This is quite simply one of the worst run organizations in >> the game because it has no plan. > > You may be right. You may be wrong. Only time will tell, and only then > in hindsight. > I think we have enough emperical evidence on this to draw solid conclusions. >> >> I know I beat the Red Sox example to death, but everybody killed them >> at the beginning of the season about how their grand plan didn't >> work. They're 4 games out of first place tied with the Yankees. They >> didn't panic when they were 8 1/2 games back in the middle of May. >> They stuck to their plan. Guys are starting to get healthy now and >> all of the sudden they went 14-5 and the AL East is a 3-team race >> again. They stick to their plan. Even the Yankees stick to their >> plan. The Mets go for whatever the newest fad is. That's why the >> Mets have had 9 GM's since 1991 and the Yankees and Red Sox have had 6 >> combined (not including 2 short interim stints in Boston). > > The Mets live in a press world. They have to "win now" regardless of > what the > right approach might be. I personally think they are headed in the > right direction, > mostly in an oblique way. Manuel and Minaya cannot simply say "we > don't care > about free agents" they must find their way to bringing up marginal > players > (Tejada, Mejia, etc) who are not "can't miss right NOW" kind of guys > and let > them find their way. They are doing this. > It is not the issue of signing Free Agents. It is not even an issue of making bad free agent signings, although a smarter team could have reduced the number of bad signings. It is the insistance of playing those bad free agents whether they perform or not. That is the biggest problem that hampers this team. Ruben > Politics sucks, whether it be in the political arena, the job arena, > or the sports > arena. I've been there for 25 years plus, I know. So, you do what you > can. Will > it work? No clue. > > Matt >
From: jonathan on 9 Jun 2010 13:43 > > You may be right. You may be wrong. Only time will tell, and only then > in hindsight. Time has told. The last 20 years have told. Part of the reason there is no sustained success is because there is no sustained plan. The Mets take shortcuts to getting good, get good, and then can't sustain it. Then they get terrible again and all of the sudden it's time for a brand new approach and let's start over. The pattern is there since the late 80's. The only extended period of success in the history of the franchise was 1984-1990, and that was based on a plan. Unfortunately, the conflict between Frank Cashen and Davey Johnson got in the way as did Cashen's retirement. Remember, Cashen built a 20- year Orioles success story. The Mets would have had the same thing had Cashen and Johnson gotten along and had Cashen's ego allowed McIlvaine and Hunsicker to step in the late 80's when Frank was clearly losing it. Hunsicker went to Houston and built a franchise and McIlvaine has been a big part of what the Twins have done. This group has no plan. When Omar came in he talked about pitching, speed, defense, and athleticism. Then he started talking about on base percentage and actual baseball skills. Now with the big ballpark he's back to pitching, speed, defense, and athleticism. There is no pitching philosophy in the organization, unless you call just throw hard and who cares where it goes a philosophy. There is no draft philosophy. The drafting record of this group is no better then sub- par. It's not just the players in the major leagues, but the prospects and depth you have. The fact that so much veteran/ journeymen junk has been signed in the last couple of years is an indictment of that lack of depth in the farm system. > > The Mets live in a press world. They have to "win now" regardless of So do the Yankees and Red Sox, and again the Mets have had 50% more GM's in the last 20 years then those two franchises COMBINED. Again, there is no plan and no consistency and you will never win consistently without it. > what the > right approach might be. I personally think they are headed in the > right direction, Really, did you happen to do any reading regarding Omar's latest draft? Nice things are being said about Harvey, the kid they took #1. After that, the Mets did their typical lousy job in the 2-10 range. Here's Keith Law's assessment, and he's not the only one I found: "New York Mets: The Mets went for almost no ceiling on day two, choosing largely college players, many of whom just aren't very good. Their second through fourth round picks are "name" college hitters who don't project to make enough contact with the wood bat, led by the whiff- tacular Cory Vaughn, son of former big leaguer Greg. Fifth rounder Greg Peavey didn't sign out of high school due to high bonus demands, but hasn't progressed since going to Oregon State and doesn't project as more than a fifth starter. The only good tough sign I see is 24th- rounder Erik Goeddel, a draft-eligible sophomore reliever from UCLA who's been 94-97 the last few weeks; his father was employee No. 3 at Genentech and later co-founded Tularik, and Goeddel is likely to go back to school to be the Sunday starter in 2011." http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/draft2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=5264675 The first round isn't where you make your money, it's in 2-10 and then late. That's where you find your organizational depth. The Mets have been spectacular failures in draft depth for the last 20 years. Lately they've been trying to compensate with international signings, but the truth is that the draft is still 2:1 in terms of providing players compared to the international market. They just did a study that showed the gap was wider then that but I think there were certain biases and I think 2:1 is more reasonable. > mostly in an oblique way. Manuel and Minaya cannot simply say "we > don't care > about free agents" they must find their way to bringing up marginal > players > (Tejada, Mejia, etc) who are not "can't miss right NOW" kind of guys > and let > them find their way. They are doing this. Mejia is as close to a 'can't miss' pitching prospect as the Mets have had since the Wilson, Pulsipher, Isringhausen days. There was no reason to rush him except for Omar and Jerry's job security. Again . . . no plan . . . no continuity. Wasting him away throwing 60 innings a year in the bullpen is pointless at this stage in his development. > > Politics sucks, whether it be in the political arena, the job arena, > or the sports > arena. I've been there for 25 years plus, I know. So, you do what you > can. Will > it work? No clue. Omar knows nothing about politics. If he did, he would know how to control his bosses. That's what Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman do. They let their bosses do whatever but they don't let them get in the way of running a successful baseball franchise. That's politics. Omar is completely over his head politically. That's the problem. I've never said he's not a good baseball man. I don't think he's exceptional and I think he's narrow-minded but I think he's servicable. I think he's a terrible politician. I think he sucks in the media and I think he's even worse within his own organization. There's no other way to explain a manager who clearly has a different philosophy, a former assistant who clearly was running his own ship, a scouting department in disarray, and ownership that is all over the place. Negotiating all of this is Omar's job and his inability to do it is his #1 failure. Until the Mets hire a GM who can manage the Wilpons, they're nowhere. It's that simple. Steve Phillips couldn't do it because he had enough of his own problems, and frankly there hasn't been anybody else strong enough since Cashman in the GM chair.
From: jonathan on 9 Jun 2010 13:58 > > It is not the issue of signing Free Agents. It is not even an issue of > making bad free agent signings, although a smarter team could have > reduced the number of bad signings. It is the insistance of playing > those bad free agents whether they perform or not. That is the biggest > problem that hampers this team. > > Ruben Everybody makes mistakes. Cashman traded for Javier Vasquez twice and Theo Epstein signed Julio Lugo. The difference between those teams and the Mets, is that they have Plan B and Plan C for when Plan A doesn't work. The Mets barely have Plan A, hence the need to keep throwing Oliver Perez out there and to keep Luis Castillo in the lineup. That's what the Royals and Pirates do when they have a bad signing. The Mets end up operating that way until they lose a lot of games and dwindling attendance forces ownership to eat it.
From: Ruben Safir on 10 Jun 2010 01:14
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:43:06 -0700, jonathan wrote: > what the >> right approach might be. I personally think they are headed in the >> right direction, > > Really, did you happen to do any reading regarding Omar's latest draft? > Nice things are being said about Harvey, the kid they took #1. After > that, the Mets did their typical lousy job in the 2-10 range. Here's > Keith Law's assessment, and he's not the only one I found: I couldn't find much material. Do you have some links. Ruben |