From: JustTom on 9 Jul 2010 16:38
On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:24:00 -0700, eddygdvd(a)msn.com (john smith)
>If my memory serve me right Bowie Kuhn once vetoed a Vida Blue trade to
>the Reds trade based on the integrity of the game? Why can't that
>spineless jellyfish known as Selig do the same here?
Problem is, it's in their best interest to have the yankees in
For me, this commissioner has been in the worst interest of baseball
for almost half of my life. It's staggering for me to consider that
he's been in the office for almost 20 years now.
Curious.. are reds fans also Cavalier fans?
Dark days if Lee goes the day after. Not as big a kick as if you
were an indian fan watching Sabathia and Lee pitch for the yanks in
the WS and James in the finals, but still pretty bad.
From: JustTom on 9 Jul 2010 16:51
On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT), tom dunne <dunnetg(a)gmail.com>
>I don't like it when the Yankees buy up every free agent All-Star they
>can lay their hands on, but I can't really complain about a trade.
>They have a finite supply of talent in their minor league system, and
>if they want to clear it out to rent a guy for three months, so be
>it. Unlike the Vida Blue 'fire sale' that the A's tried to pull, the
>Mariners are out to get the best return possible. If they think the
>Yankees offer is the best for their organization's ability to compete
>in the future, they have every right to take it.
You're missing an important factor. They can literally overpay
their prospect list each and every trade that they want because they
don't need them, even if they are as good as they are touted.
If they give up their highest rated catching prospect, even if it's
the top prospect in baseball, it simply doesn't matter because they
will buy the best FA agent catcher available when Posada is done.
Best MLB catcher > best ml catcher prospect by a huge margin.
Twins,Devil_Rays, Reds, most anybody else cannot afford to do that.
So, even when the yanks trade, it's not the same cost factor as the
From: HTP on 9 Jul 2010 16:51
On Jul 9, 12:22 pm, David Short
> On 7/9/2010 2:42 PM, HTP wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 10:33 am, David Short
> > <David.No.Sho...(a)Spam.wright.Please.edu> wrote:
> >> On 7/9/2010 12:51 PM, Will Vaughan wrote:
> >>> So their conclusion was that Montero
> >>> probably isn't the superstar they've built him up to be and other teams
> >>> should be cautious.
> >>> They could be totally wrong, but they were very convincing in their
> >>> history of who the Yanks have dealt and kept.
> >>> Also, I would be a bit concerned about Hughes - he hasn't looked
> >>> as dominate in his last few starts.
> >> Brandon Claussen
> Aaron Boone
> >> Wily Mo Pena
> swap for Drew Hensen>> Drew Henson
> >> Brian Reith
> >> Ed Yarnall
> >> Jackson Melian
> This was the loot from Denny Neagle. Turned into nothing. Just like Denny!
> > I assume this is a list of Yankees "prospects" that were packaged to
> > the Reds and never made it big in the bigs.
> Sorry. I thought red's fans would recognize those deals.
> > Reith doesnt really belong on this list. He was never more than a
> > marginal prospect. He was a 6th rounder and 5 years into his career he
> > was still in A-ball. That doesnt scream prospect to me.
> When he came to the reds he was a 21 year old in his fourth season
> pitching well in high a ball. That might not be the fast track, but it's
> a potential career.
> > Yarnall was originally a Mets prospect, became a decent pitcher at
> > Columbus, got noticed, and then was packaged to the Reds. But he only
> > played in 33 games in the Yankees system.
> He was a top 50 prospect when he came to the reds. The reds (who were
> desperate for starting pitching) thought so much of him they sold him to
> > Henson and melian were both highly regarded. But this wasnt just the
> > yankees touting thier guys. Baseball America had these guys rated as
> > prospects. Looking at Hensons minor league numbers it eludes me as to
> > what anybody saw in him.
> Melian-sometimes young guys just never do take that step forward. This
> could be Yorman's future.
> > Henson barely played in the Reds system and was promptly traded back
> > to the Yankees. Melion also barely played for the Reds farm, and was
> > moved. I dont know what that was all about.
> He refused to play for the reds. He was an "athelete" and had the
> leverage of going to play quarter back at....Michigan? I think it was
> Michagan and teams pretty much had to do what he wanted. He wasn't a
> baseball player. Pena-Hensen was a 1-1 swap when Hensen cried that he
> wouldn't play for the reds but only for the yankees.
> > Pena was originally mets property. he had a few decent years at the
> > plate. I dont know if its injuries that finished him or teams just
> > gave up. Did he get a world series ring with Boston in 2007?
> yes, he did.
> > You say "buyer beware" but I can make list of players like these for
> > all clubs. Conversely, i can put together list of players teams traded
> > away that did do something in the majors.
> Ok....give me 3 names of young prospects the Red Sox dropped on the Reds
> in the last 30 years that have turned into busts.
Not sure what youre criteria is for a "prospect". But off the top of
Those are the 2 guys we got for Scott Williamson.
We got him in the Esasky/Benzinger trade.
its so far back i have no recollection of the guy, but he did go 15-3
at A-ball 3 years before we got him, had low era's as a starter at AA,
and he was at AAA when he was acquired, so i'm assuming he was a
reasonably regarded prospect.
Those are the first 2 Reds-Red Sox trades that came to mind that have
occured since 1980 (not including last seasons Gonzalez-for-Kris
Negron trade), and theres 3 bust already.
We all know that most prospects are going to be bust anyway, therefore
it would make some sense that most prospects who are included in
trades would also be bust, whether they come out of the Yankees
organization or wherever.
From: tom dunne on 9 Jul 2010 17:05
On Jul 9, 2:44 pm, "Thomas R. Kettler" <tkett...(a)blownfuse.net> wrote:
> In article
> tom dunne <dunn...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 1:37 pm, "Thomas R. Kettler" <tkett...(a)blownfuse.net> wrote:
> > > Don't forget the immortal in his mind JT Snow who was the big player the
> > > Angels received for Jim Abbott.
> > Hey, that one was a pretty good deal. Snow didn't won six straight
> > Gold Gloves and had six seasons with an OPS+ of 112 or better (he had
> > an excellent year in 1997.) After the trade, Abbott went 40-56 for
> > the rest of his career, never coming close to his 1991 season.
> > Definitely a win for the Angels.
> An OPS+ of 112 for a 1B is no big deal. His career OPS+=105 which is
> mediocre for a 1B. Remember that OPS+ just takes league average OPS into
> account (normalized for stadium so that Dante Bichette's stats get taken
> into account for playing in the Arenaball of Colorado).
> Baseball Reference has Dan Driessen as the most similar batter to JT
> Snow. Driessen was an NBD player (No Big Deal) just like JT Snow.
> As for Abbott, I don't know what happened to him. His 1995 season for
> the White Sox and Angels was good (ERA+=124) but he was a human
> blowtorch in 1996 (ERA=7.48 and ERA+=66) for the Angels, a team which
> never recovered from its 1995 slide.
I didn't say that JT Snow's performance was a "big deal." I said that
the deal was "pretty good" for the Angels, relative to the above-
mentioned traded Yankees.
If you disagree with my assessment that JT Snow was the better player
in that deal, please take a moment to look up the Win Shares for Snow
and Abbott after 1992 and let us know who comes out ahead.
From: tom dunne on 9 Jul 2010 17:13
On Jul 9, 4:51 pm, t...(a)nomail.please (JustTom) wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT), tom dunne <dunn...(a)gmail.com>
> >I don't like it when the Yankees buy up every free agent All-Star they
> >can lay their hands on, but I can't really complain about a trade.
> >They have a finite supply of talent in their minor league system, and
> >if they want to clear it out to rent a guy for three months, so be
> >it. Unlike the Vida Blue 'fire sale' that the A's tried to pull, the
> >Mariners are out to get the best return possible. If they think the
> >Yankees offer is the best for their organization's ability to compete
> >in the future, they have every right to take it.
> You're missing an important factor. They can literally overpay
> their prospect list each and every trade that they want because they
> don't need them, even if they are as good as they are touted.
> If they give up their highest rated catching prospect, even if it's
> the top prospect in baseball, it simply doesn't matter because they
> will buy the best FA agent catcher available when Posada is done.
> Best MLB catcher > best ml catcher prospect by a huge margin.
> Twins,Devil_Rays, Reds, most anybody else cannot afford to do that.
> So, even when the yanks trade, it's not the same cost factor as the
I didn't say it was the same cost factor. I said that the Mariners
are entitled to pick the best offer, and if the Yankees have that to
offer, then so be it. This is not a situation like the Yankees
signing CC Sabathia and the Brewers being compensated with all of a
single draft pick - that's inequitable, and what I object to. The
Mariners are trading for what they feel is essentially equal (or at
least acceptable) value, and no one is walking away unhappy. It's an
exchange of talent rather than a one-sided accumulation.