Reds get Aaron Miles for Taveras and Rosales
in [Cincinnati Reds]
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From: John Kasupski on 2 Feb 2010 14:59 On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:02:42 -0800 (PST), HTP <tmbowman25(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >Youre in rare form again John. Yeah. You know what? I'm beginning to get a very good understanding of what it's like to be a sane person in an insane asylum. You have a nice day now, Henry. JK
From: RJA on 2 Feb 2010 15:13 On Feb 2, 2:50 pm, John Kasupski <w2...(a)spamfilter.verizon.net> wrote: > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:43:49 -0800 (PST), RJA <agentvau...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >As for trading Taveras for Miles, I'm certainly not complaining about > >that. All I said was that his presence on the roster doesn't improve > >anything just because he happened to have a roster spot on 2 World > >Series teams. The same goes for Lemke, Counsell, and many others. > >I'm not saying that guys like Rolen who go about their business in a > >professional manner can't influence others to up their game, but when > >we're saying Miles, Cabrera, Eric Milton or whoever else know how to > >win, that just sounds plain silly. Billy Bates has a World Series > >ring, doesn't he? > > Come on, Rich. That's apples to oranges. There's a world of difference between > the contribution Bates made to the 1990 Reds and the contributions Miles, Rolen, > and Cabrera made to the 2006 Cardinals and 2004 Red Sox. > > Miles, Cabrera, and Rolen weren't just guys who rode the pines when they won WS > rings. They were key members of their teams. > > Down the stretch in '06 when the Cardinals were battling for a playoff spot, it > was Miles who played shortstop late in the season and helped them win the > division while their reguolar shortstop, David Eckstein, was injured. He also > started 71 games at 2B for the '06 Cardinals, and hit .364 in postseason play. > > Rolen started 142 games at 3B for the 2006 Cardinals, hit .296 with 48 doubles, > won a Gold Glove, was an NL All-Star, and hit .421 in the WS.. > > Theo Epstein went out and got Cabrera from the Expos to replace Nomar at > shortstop mainly for his glove, but he hit .294 after the trade during the > regular season and .379 in the 2004 ALCS. This is exactly my point. They helped their teams win by their performance on the field as si measured by these numbers, but their performance on the field is an indication of their talent, not the fact that they played on a roster filled with guys who knew how to win or some sort of playoff experience which helped them to excel. They're out there doing what they did all year. That's hitting the ball and fielding well. It's fine if we want to say that Cabrera or Miles are guys who have a history of being productive, but to phrase it as if they've been on winning teams and therefore the Reds will be winning isn't accurate. > Compare that to Bates, who had all of five regular-season at-bats in 1990, and > started 13 games in his entire career - and only one in 1990. Except for one > memorable at-bat in the 1990 WS, his effect on his team was negligible. That > can't be said for Rolen, Cabrera, or Miles. Those four guys have been there and > done that as key members of world championship ballclubs...along with Arroyo, > who in 2004 did not lose a game after August 15 (the Sox won all of his last 9 > starts), left Game Three of the ALDS with a 6-1 lead, pitched a 1-2-3 inning in > relief in Game Five of the ALCS, and combined with Alan Embree to pitch a > scoreless eighth inning in relief in Game Four of the WS - not to mention his > prominent role in the memorable play humorously depicted in the photo here:http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/lofiversion/index.php?t5278.html > > So Bates is not a valid comparison. Now, if you wanna talk Billy Hatcher, > Mariano Duncan, Danny Jackson, Rick Mahler, Randy Myers - guys on the 1990 Reds > who had prior playoff experience - that's another story. But picking Bates off > that roster to hold up as an argument is like saying last year's Reds failed to > win a playoff slot because Janish is a lousy pitcher. Yes, Bates is a stretch, but Lemke and Counsell are in line with the point. Teams aren't chasing down Counsell because he's a winner and has a ring. If they sign him, it's because they feel he can produce at some level beyond what they already have. > Anyway...I think you, and Henry, severely underestimate the value of that kind > of experience in the clubhouse, particularly on a team like the Reds with so > many young players. I'm also glad that Walt Jocketty does not. Jocketty acquired Cabrera because he's a far better option than Janish on a team that struggles to score runs. He acquired Miles because it coincided with getting rid of Taveras and his 4 million dollar contract. He literally would have taken a 12 hour old hot dog for Taveras and Rosales if it freed us from that contract. I'm not joking. These moves were made for production and money, not because of their knowledge of how to win.
From: HTP on 2 Feb 2010 15:18 On Feb 2, 11:50 am, John Kasupski <w2...(a)spamfilter.verizon.net> wrote: > > Anyway...I think you, and Henry, severely underestimate the value of that kind > of experience in the clubhouse, particularly on a team like the Reds with so > many young players. I'm also glad that Walt Jocketty does not. > Youre making an assumption here that Walt picked up Rolen and Miles in large part due to thier postseason experience. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that... they are former Cardinals. Remember how O'Brien seemed to bring in an inordinate number of former Rangers, Krivsky brought in Loshe and Guardado from Minnesota. Bowden goes to Washington and promptly starts importing a steady stream of former Reds. Now Walt has added at least his third former Cardinal (Cairo), and these are just the ones I can recall right off the top of my head. I posted some years ago that it wasnt anything unusual for Reds GM's to acquire players from organizations they were familiar with, nor was it odd that Bowden would add former Reds, this probably happens with most GM's This doesnt mean necessarly that Walt added Rolen and Miles primarily because they were former Cardinals, but considering that they were acquired via the BJ's and A's respectively rather than directly from St. Louis, it sort of hints at a trend. I'm a bit surprised he wasnt sniffing around Edmonds or Chris Duncan.
From: RJA on 2 Feb 2010 15:21 On Feb 2, 3:18 pm, HTP <tmbowma...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Feb 2, 11:50 am, John Kasupski <w2...(a)spamfilter.verizon.net> > wrote: > > > > > Anyway...I think you, and Henry, severely underestimate the value of that kind > > of experience in the clubhouse, particularly on a team like the Reds with so > > many young players. I'm also glad that Walt Jocketty does not. > > Youre making an assumption here that Walt picked up Rolen and Miles in > large part due to thier postseason experience. > > I think alot of it has to do with the fact that... they are former > Cardinals. > > Remember how O'Brien seemed to bring in an inordinate number of > former Rangers, Krivsky brought in Loshe and Guardado from Minnesota. > Bowden goes to Washington and promptly starts importing a steady > stream of former Reds. Now Walt has added at least his third former > Cardinal (Cairo), and these are just the ones I can recall right off > the top of my head. I posted some years ago that it wasnt anything > unusual for Reds GM's to acquire players from organizations they were > familiar with, nor was it odd that Bowden would add former Reds, this > probably happens with most GM's > > This doesnt mean necessarly that Walt added Rolen and Miles primarily > because they were former Cardinals, but considering that they were > acquired via the BJ's and A's respectively rather than directly from > St. Louis, it sort of hints at a trend. I'm a bit surprised he wasnt > sniffing around Edmonds or Chris Duncan. Chris Duncan. Please, no.
From: HTP on 2 Feb 2010 15:25
On Feb 2, 12:13 pm, RJA <agentvau...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 2, 2:50 pm, John Kasupski <w2...(a)spamfilter.verizon.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:43:49 -0800 (PST), RJA <agentvau...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >As for trading Taveras for Miles, I'm certainly not complaining about > > >that. All I said was that his presence on the roster doesn't improve > > >anything just because he happened to have a roster spot on 2 World > > >Series teams. The same goes for Lemke, Counsell, and many others. > > >I'm not saying that guys like Rolen who go about their business in a > > >professional manner can't influence others to up their game, but when > > >we're saying Miles, Cabrera, Eric Milton or whoever else know how to > > >win, that just sounds plain silly. Billy Bates has a World Series > > >ring, doesn't he? > > > Come on, Rich. That's apples to oranges. There's a world of difference between > > the contribution Bates made to the 1990 Reds and the contributions Miles, Rolen, > > and Cabrera made to the 2006 Cardinals and 2004 Red Sox. > > > Miles, Cabrera, and Rolen weren't just guys who rode the pines when they won WS > > rings. They were key members of their teams. > > > Down the stretch in '06 when the Cardinals were battling for a playoff spot, it > > was Miles who played shortstop late in the season and helped them win the > > division while their reguolar shortstop, David Eckstein, was injured. He also > > started 71 games at 2B for the '06 Cardinals, and hit .364 in postseason play. > > > Rolen started 142 games at 3B for the 2006 Cardinals, hit .296 with 48 doubles, > > won a Gold Glove, was an NL All-Star, and hit .421 in the WS.. > > > Theo Epstein went out and got Cabrera from the Expos to replace Nomar at > > shortstop mainly for his glove, but he hit .294 after the trade during the > > regular season and .379 in the 2004 ALCS. > > This is exactly my point. They helped their teams win by their > performance on the field as si measured by these numbers, but their > performance on the field is an indication of their talent, not the > fact that they played on a roster filled with guys who knew how to win > or some sort of playoff experience which helped them to excel. > They're out there doing what they did all year. That's hitting the > ball and fielding well. It's fine if we want to say that Cabrera or > Miles are guys who have a history of being productive, but to phrase > it as if they've been on winning teams and therefore the Reds will be > winning isn't accurate. > > > > > > > Compare that to Bates, who had all of five regular-season at-bats in 1990, and > > started 13 games in his entire career - and only one in 1990. Except for one > > memorable at-bat in the 1990 WS, his effect on his team was negligible. That > > can't be said for Rolen, Cabrera, or Miles. Those four guys have been there and > > done that as key members of world championship ballclubs...along with Arroyo, > > who in 2004 did not lose a game after August 15 (the Sox won all of his last 9 > > starts), left Game Three of the ALDS with a 6-1 lead, pitched a 1-2-3 inning in > > relief in Game Five of the ALCS, and combined with Alan Embree to pitch a > > scoreless eighth inning in relief in Game Four of the WS - not to mention his > > prominent role in the memorable play humorously depicted in the photo here:http://www.mobclan.com/forums/upload/lofiversion/index.php?t5278.html > > > So Bates is not a valid comparison. Now, if you wanna talk Billy Hatcher, > > Mariano Duncan, Danny Jackson, Rick Mahler, Randy Myers - guys on the 1990 Reds > > who had prior playoff experience - that's another story. But picking Bates off > > that roster to hold up as an argument is like saying last year's Reds failed to > > win a playoff slot because Janish is a lousy pitcher. > > Yes, Bates is a stretch, but Lemke and Counsell are in line with the > point. Teams aren't chasing down Counsell because he's a winner and > has a ring. If they sign him, it's because they feel he can produce > at some level beyond what they already have. > > > Anyway...I think you, and Henry, severely underestimate the value of that kind > > of experience in the clubhouse, particularly on a team like the Reds with so > > many young players. I'm also glad that Walt Jocketty does not. > > Jocketty acquired Cabrera because he's a far better option than Janish > on a team that struggles to score runs. He acquired Miles because it > coincided with getting rid of Taveras and his 4 million dollar > contract. He literally would have taken a 12 hour old hot dog for > Taveras and Rosales if it freed us from that contract. I'm not > joking. These moves were made for production and money, not because > of their knowledge of how to win.- Hide quoted text - > Agreed. Taveras clearly knew how to win, as is evidenced by his appearance on 2 pennant winners in 3 year span. Unfortunately, he didnt know how to bunt for a hit, or slap the ball around the infield and leg it out, or lay off the high pitch for the BB, or run down a fly ball into the gap, or..... |