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From: John Walsh on 1 Aug 2010 23:38
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 12:06:59 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
<lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:02:51 -0700, Greg Lentz
><nodamnspam(a)speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 01:12:25 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
>><lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:12:53 -1000, John Walsh <jwalsh589(a)gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>The Giants are now where they haven't been in over seven years ... 15
>>>>games over .500! They have pitching, they've got pitching, all they
>>>>need is a healthy bullpen.
>>>
>>>
>>>But they don't have Bowker in the organization anymore.
>>>
>>>How could Sabean deal him away so cheaply?
>>
>>Because we care more about making the major league playoffs than winning a
>>AAA title.
>
>
>What, with seven lefties available for the bullpen instead of six?
>That could be the key, all right!
>
>You're a notorious cynic; you don't like anyone. When did you decide
>that Javier Lopez was The Chosen One?

I'd say that would be when Lopez came in and got the only batter he
face in his first appearance as a Giant. Cynicism didn't get the
Giants 16 games over .500. :)

"Because they care more about making the major league playoffs than
winning a AAA title"? That's one of his patented can't-lose
comments. What happens in San Francisco is more important that the
title in AAA. It is the reason that AAA, AAA, A clubs exist, to feed
the patent club. Looks like the Grizzlies are doing just fine without
Posey and Bumgarner.
From: Grizzlie Antagonist on 2 Aug 2010 00:15
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:21:48 -0700, Greg Lentz
<nodamnspam(a)speakeasy.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 12:06:59 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
><lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:02:51 -0700, Greg Lentz
>><nodamnspam(a)speakeasy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 01:12:25 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
>>><lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:12:53 -1000, John Walsh <jwalsh589(a)gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Giants are now where they haven't been in over seven years ... 15
>>>>>games over .500! They have pitching, they've got pitching, all they
>>>>>need is a healthy bullpen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But they don't have Bowker in the organization anymore.
>>>>
>>>>How could Sabean deal him away so cheaply?
>>>
>>>Because we care more about making the major league playoffs than winning a
>>>AAA title.
>>
>>What, with seven lefties available for the bullpen instead of six?
>>That could be the key, all right!
>
>Runzler - injured
>Affeldt - injured
>Sanchez - starter
>Bumgardner - starter
>Zito - starter
>
>Guys that you overrate in Fresno don't count.



Right. They were short a left-hander, so they traded the 2009 PCL
batting champion and Minor League Player of the Year to get a
journeyman left-handed specialist (lifetime WHIP of 1.491; lifetime
K/BB ratio of 1.33) who is normally designated to pitch to one
left-handed batter every other game.

Yes, I know Lopez got his man tonight, and I'm glad of it. Good for
him.

That doesn't make this a good deal. It makes it a typical Sabean
deal.



>>You're a notorious cynic; you don't like anyone. When did you decide
>>that Javier Lopez was The Chosen One?
>
>When did you decide that putting words in people's mouths made you smart?


I decided that I was smart long before I put words in people's mouths.


>Oh, and another thing:
>
>Bowker career OPS: .678 in 475 AB. He had plenty of time to show whether
>he could play or not.


Really? Well, check out Barry Bond's numbers after his first year on
the Pirates (413 AB).

Check out Andres Torres's stats before he ended up with the Giants
last year at the age of 30-something (285 AB). I'll wager that Torres
anyway didn't produce like Bowker did at the AAA level.

But the point is not that Bowker should have been regarded as
"untouchable".

The point is that the Giants did not get full value or anything close
to full value for him.


>And yet another thing:
>
>Fred Lewis - Toronto OPS: .798 for a guy who can't play CF (and can barely
>play left). I'm not weeping for his departure.


Who mentioned Fred Lewis? I didn't. When did you decide that putting
words in people's mouths made you smart?
From: Grizzlie Antagonist on 2 Aug 2010 00:24
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:38:29 -1000, John Walsh <jwalsh589(a)gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 12:06:59 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
><lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:02:51 -0700, Greg Lentz
>><nodamnspam(a)speakeasy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 01:12:25 -0700, Grizzlie Antagonist
>>><lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:12:53 -1000, John Walsh <jwalsh589(a)gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Giants are now where they haven't been in over seven years ... 15
>>>>>games over .500! They have pitching, they've got pitching, all they
>>>>>need is a healthy bullpen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But they don't have Bowker in the organization anymore.
>>>>
>>>>How could Sabean deal him away so cheaply?
>>>
>>>Because we care more about making the major league playoffs than winning a
>>>AAA title.
>>
>>
>>What, with seven lefties available for the bullpen instead of six?
>>That could be the key, all right!
>>
>>You're a notorious cynic; you don't like anyone. When did you decide
>>that Javier Lopez was The Chosen One?
>
>I'd say that would be when Lopez came in and got the only batter he
>face in his first appearance as a Giant. Cynicism didn't get the
>Giants 16 games over .500. :)


Of course, I'm delighted that he did that (I was sure as hell not
rooting AGAINST him) and with the results of the weekend series.

You can just imagine what I would have written here if Lopez's debut
had not been so auspicious. :)

That doesn't make this a good deal.

I mean, giving the house 10 to 1 odds and on the roulette wheel, just
so that you can take red over black (the odds should be almost even,
not 10 to 1) is still a bad deal -- even if the ball DOES land in the
red.


>"Because they care more about making the major league playoffs than
>winning a AAA title"? That's one of his patented can't-lose
>comments. What happens in San Francisco is more important that the
>title in AAA. It is the reason that AAA, AAA, A clubs exist, to feed
>the patent club. Looks like the Grizzlies are doing just fine without
>Posey and Bumgarner.


Yes, I understand that the AAA club exists to serve the major league
club and again, my complaint is not that they traded Bowker; it's that
they got so little in exchange for him.
From: nomisnala on 2 Aug 2010 02:31
On Aug 1, 1:29 pm, Grizzlie Antagonist <lloydsofhanf...(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 04:21:50 -0700, Jim Garaventa <a...(a)b.com> wrote:
> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
> >> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:12:53 -1000, John Walsh <jwalsh...(a)gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> The Giants are now where they haven't been in over seven years ... 15
> >>> games over .500! They have pitching, they've got pitching, all they
> >>> need is a healthy bullpen.
>
> >> But they don't have Bowker in the organization anymore.
>
> >> How could Sabean deal him away so cheaply?
>
> >Because they desperately needed a left handed bullpen arm and Bowker is
> >a AAAA player.  You're valuing Bowker much higher than he's worth
> >because you seen him be very successful in Fresno, but he's had his
> >chances at the MLB level and he's not that good.
>
> Here are Andres Torres's ML stats.
>
> http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torrean02.shtml
>
> Look how many major league organizations let him get away because he
> wasn't very good.
>
> I don't know what Torres's minor league stats were, but I doubt that
> they were as good as Bowker's.
>
> Bowker may or may not some day break through on the major league
> level, but it's hard to believe that the winner of the 2009 MiLBY
> isn't worth more on the trading market than a portion of a journeyman
> reliever.
>
>
>
> >Sure, I would have traded Joe Martinez for Will Ohman instead and kept
> >Bowker for OF depth, but the Orioles may think the Florida guy is a
> >better prospect than Martinez and that trade wasn't doable for the Giants.
>
> >Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sabean has put together a great pitching staff, and it will make
the giants contenders. but undervaluing guys like Bowker, Frandsen
and Lewis, all of whom might be considered iffy, but with decent
upside
potential, and at close to major league minumum, means we got back
a lot less in return for these guys than they merited. You cannot
continually give away talent for nothing and hope to stay contenders
for
a long period. A few injuries and poof. Bowker is a legit power
threat,
and unlike Todd Linden does not have a long loopy swing that is loaded
with holes. They can trade anyone they want, but I would like to see
some value in return. Did you happen to see the game Francisco
Liriano pitched today. Giants gave him away for nothing. A throw in
in the A.J. Pierzinsky trade. Plain uneccessary release of valuable
assets.
From: Awesome Lincecum on 2 Aug 2010 06:52
Grizzlie Antagonist <lloydsofhanford(a)yahoo.com> wrote in
news:jqfc56d3oa8ecslrphnh3ris5hanhkjte9(a)4ax.com:
>
>
> Really? Well, check out Barry Bond's numbers after his first year
> on the Pirates (413 AB).

Bonds was 21 yrs old, and he played CF in his first year, not RF. Do
you know the difference between CF and RF? *Big* difference. Bonds
was #6 in the Rookie of the Year race. Bonds has already won an MVP
and gold glove by age 25. Bowker still can't hit major league pitching
at age 26/27. He seems like another Todd Linden: all-star minor
leaguer, can't hit major league pitching. Maybe Bowker will develop
into a good hitter if he gets to play everyday on a shitty team, and
I'd be happy for him, but he's not gonna get playing time in SF.

Another thing is that offensive numbers were lower in the 1980s.
Bonds' OPS+ was 103; Bowker 75.

> Check out Andres Torres's stats before he ended up with the Giants
> last year at the age of 30-something (285 AB). I'll wager that
> Torres anyway didn't produce like Bowker did at the AAA level.

Torres is an exception. The Giants essentially got lucky here
(assuming he can keep it up). How many Torres examples can you find?
Not to mention he's another CF.


> But the point is not that Bowker should have been regarded as
> "untouchable".
>
> The point is that the Giants did not get full value or anything
> close to full value for him.

1) You're overvaluing Bowker. Major league numbers trump minor league
numbers. See Todd Linden.
2) Giants needed a trade at the trade deadline, so they were at a
disadvantage on the bargaining table. If this was an offseason trade,
maybe they have more leverage. I don't know who else in the minors
that other teams would want, and the Giants willing to give up, but I
won't lose any sleep over losing Bowker.
3) You were counting on Affeldt's return to help our playoff run?
Really? Looks like you're overvaluing Affeldt too. Most people cringe
when he pitches.
4) I'm pretty sure Sabean's phone wasn't ringing off the hook from
other teams' GMs inquiring about Bowker, or else we probably would've
gotten better value for him.
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